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From the Desk of Alicia Kennedy
Oct 20, 2026
On Appetite with Lauren Collins
On Appetite with Lauren Collins
00:00
41:48
1×
Transcript
0:00
Hi, Lauren. Thank you so much for being here. Hi, Alicia. As I was saying, I'm so thrilled to have the opportunity to, like, verbally chat after- I am too... so many years of doing so in other forum.
0:11
[laughs] You really are sort of, like, on the food beat, but not. Like, how do you, how do you think of your relationship to writing about food?
0:19
Because I know you've written about, like, the Japanese fake foods and lunch and, you know, this, like, kind of Nutella thing recently. So how, how do you see your, your, your beat as sort of intersecting with food?
0:35
You're... Yeah, you're right. I mean, technically, I guess, technically my beat is France. Okay. But I think, um, it would be very difficult, nor would you ever want to try to cover France with- Without...
0:46
you know, without paying careful, um, and constant attention to food. And so I think maybe I, more than others, like [laughs] really pay attention to food.
0:56
But yeah, I've turned, I've turned, like, a good chunk of the France beat into, um... Well, it's a food beat, a France beat, and often a French food beat.
1:08
Um, and, you know, I think one of the really important questions that, um, well, in France right now, but all over, is, you know, questions about identity and who belongs.
1:21
And I think food is, like, a particularly powerful lens, um, by which to examine that.
1:27
So that's been, like, the genesis a lot- of a lot of the pieces about food I've written recently, um, in France, and I have another one up my sleeve that I'm just starting to report now.
1:38
But I do see food as this, um, you know, if not singular, particularly, like, just salient and effective way to get at what's, what's really going on in a place. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, how do you find those stories?
1:54
Like, how does, how do food stories come to you in, in this kind of- Um, let me take, like... Let's see. Let me take a specific one. Um, so
2:05
for instance, I wrote a, a story about French tacos, um, which as I wrote in the piece are, you know, French tacos are tacos like chicken fingers are fingers, which is to say- [laughs]... they aren't.
2:17
But it's a- [laughs]... it's a kind of, you know, combo kebab, panini, burrito that, um, was invented by French people of North African descent in, um, the suburbs of Lyon or Grenoble. It depends who you ask.
2:31
There's a raging debate about this. Um, but I started to get interested in them for, I mean, really just kind of walking around. However, I don't think I would've, like,
2:42
totally realized that this was something I just absolutely had to immediately write about had a friend not told me. She, she's also a journalist. But she had been at a kind of, um, like,
2:54
convention, um, about food or a, a trade show or something like that, and she pointed out to me that French tacos were the fastest growing sector in the French restaurant world.
3:06
And so I thought, um, you know, there was... It, it wasn't just that, like, I had been seeing these everywhere and been like, "Hmm, wonder what French tacos is."
3:13
[laughs] There was really, like, also some kind of data behind the phenomenon. So that was the genesis of that piece. Um, a piece that I wrote, you mentioned the Nutella thing.
3:24
So there is this hazelnut spread called La Mortgerne, um, which, it, you know, is an Algerian competitor to Nutella that got really, really popular and went viral and was out of stock everywhere, um, last summer.
3:41
And just at the height of its popularity, um, a couple of shipments were blocked, like, on the same day, both at Charles de Gaulle and at the Port of Marseille. And it was kind of, like, just nebulous.
3:55
Nobody really knew why this product that had been, you know, sold at least in small quantities and kind of informally in France for years was suddenly being, like, turned away at the border. Yeah.
4:06
So basically, you have to be on a list of countries to import dairy products into France. Algeria is not on that list.
4:12
But the part that was funny is, like, the plot thickened because then the dairy products that they were using actually came from Brittany. So in any case- [laughs]...
4:19
this gave, gave rise to, like, a big, you know, political sta... It was really a way to look at the deterioration of the relationship between France and Algeria.
4:30
Um, so anyway, that's, like, the, you know, story in a nutshell. But I think the way that I came up with that one was really just reading, um,
4:40
like, maybe short articles about it, um, in French language newspapers- Yeah... and thinking, "Okay, that sounds really interesting. Like [laughs] let me be the one to-" [laughs] "...
4:53
you know, write the 3,000, 4,000, whatever words that nobody needs to know about this."
4:57
[laughs] But actually, I thought people did to know- did need to know more about it because it was kind of, like, happening in installments. Yeah. As I said, there was, you know, there was reporting about the virality.
5:08
Then there was reporting, um, about how difficult it was to find this product. Then the EU thing came out.
5:16
So what I wanted to do was tie it all together and show how the trajectory of this product and its reception in France was also, like, both a metaphor and, and an outgrowth of, um, you know, this, yeah, the, the deterioration of the Franco Amer- uh, Algerian diplomatic relationship.
5:36
Yeah. Well, it sounds like a... It's, it's just a quintessential New Yorker story, right? It's, like, perfect. You know- Yeah. [laughs]... I've heard you say that.
5:43
I have to say, when I pitched it, I'm not sure that that was the immediate response. [laughs] Yeah. But it was kind of one of those, like, you know, just kind-... me on this one.
5:53
[laughs] And I do think, yeah, I, I, I will say I think the final product qualifies as a quintessential New Yorker story even though it, th- there may have been initial skepticism about just how far one can go- [laughs]
6:07
... into the, into the world of, you know, uh, hazelnut spread- [laughs]... and curiosity. Well, do you find more pushback when it comes to food stories?
6:15
I mean, this is just out of curiosity because I know, like, writing for general interest places, sometimes their, their food acumen can be, like, a little bit off, I think, in terms- Um-... of what's a good story.
6:27
I feel like at this point, like, because I've built up this little beat for myself- Yeah... now it's kinda like, uh, uh, okay. Like- [laughs]... you know, I, I have to...
6:39
Sometimes I couch it, like, it's like French tacos, but it's, you know, pureed nuts. [laughs] Yeah. [laughs] Um, but I feel like if, like, a kind of, like, you know, comparison can be drawn to- Exactly...
6:53
to the track record of some that I've done and that have worked, it's, it's, like, an easier- It's an easier sell [laughs]... easier sell.
6:59
I mean, I can only speak, like, I can only speak to the, to the New Yorker, but yeah. Yes. I mean, I feel like sometimes it's like, uh, like, Lauren's off on a- [laughs]... off on a thing again. But, um- [laughs]...
7:11
but they've been... People are really... You know, they're interested in food, and they're interested in French food. And I take this as an opportunity to, you know,
7:25
like, deepen and enrich and complicate people's notions of what that is. So- Yeah... it's a subject that I'm just endlessly eager- Yeah... to, to, to go further with really. Yeah. Yeah.
7:42
No, it makes so much sense. Well, I mean, to get into some maybe of the origins of this, this l- interest in food beyond France, you know, can you tell me about where you grew up and what you ate? Okay.
7:54
So I grew up in Wilmington, North Carolina, in the 1980s and '90s, and I think, you know, time and, uh, maybe as important as space in this equation.
8:05
[laughs] Um, but so I grew up, I mean, I [laughs] had a lot of food, what could probably more accurately be called food products, um, that... And I think the main criterion...
8:16
So in my family, my mom was the one who did the cooking, but she did not then and does not now like to cook. Mm-hmm.
8:24
So, you know, the main criterion was, like, any food that could be basically, like, microwaved or toasted or grilled or otherwise efficiently heated up. [laughs] Yeah.
8:35
[laughs] And also, like, didn't make a massive mess, so I had, like, a l- I had Lean Cuisines. You know, it was like glazed chicken, microwave, two minutes 30 seconds.
8:46
The French bread pizzas, the Stouffer's French bread pizzas. Or the pl- it was Lean Cuisine French bread pizzas, but I had this, like, Stouffer's. It was kind of like a...
8:56
I don't know why, let's say, a sixth grader would be eating this on a Tuesday afternoon, like- [laughs]... before going to soccer practice. I would microwave an entire tray of, like, Thanksgiving stuffing.
9:07
[laughs] Eat it for a snack. I think that was... It's supposed to feed, like, a family at the holidays, right? But, um- [laughs] So yeah, like, very, you know, kind of privile- privileging, like, efficiency- Yeah...
9:21
in meal preparation I would say. We didn't go out super often. Uh, but when we did, I mean, maybe, like, a slightly more decadent, um,
9:33
a- approach or orientation to food came from my dad, who would, like, always order...
9:39
He always wanted to order something he'd either never heard of or had very little opportunity to encounter in our, you know, efficient, antiseptic- [laughs]... [laughs] kitchen.
9:51
So he'd be like, "I'm gonna have the lobster bisque."
9:53
[laughs] And I do think that, um, piqued my curiosity about food and also made, yeah, made, made eating out at least seem like a great adventure that could, you know, take you many places that- Yeah...
10:10
you were not encountering in daily life. But I feel like maybe you and I... Well, from what I've read of your work, I mean, you... It sounds like you had a more, you know, like, a more exciting diet at home.
10:24
[laughs] Yeah. But I imagine, like, the restaur- I mean, again, you were in a more sophisticated milieu in Long Island- [laughs]... with, like, proximity to New York and whatever, but.
10:32
I don't think anyone has ever called Long Island sophisticated. [laughs] Well, you know what? I'm gonna... I'm doing it. I'm gonna go ahead and say that, like- No. You-...
10:41
you know, you were at least in the, in the glow of a major- Yes... metropolitan area. We were in the glow. Yes, yes. Um- And, like, experienced the kind of, like, the off, uh, how would you call it?
10:52
Like, the, the runoff of, of the influence. Yes. Yeah. [laughs] But no, I, you're...
11:00
I'm laughing so much at the Stouffer's tray of Thanksgiving stuffing because it just reminds me when you're a teenager and y- I would come home from school and, like, if I was actually went to track practice, which was negligible, I would, like, just, like, eat, like, an entire pint of ice cream and then, like, still eat dinner, and it's just like where, where did that go?
11:20
[laughs] Yeah. Where did that ability go? Uh- Yeah, I haven't had a S- [laughs] a tray of Stouffer's, Stou- Stouffer's, Stouffer's, like, family style, you know, Thanksgiving stuffing in a while, but. Yeah.
11:34
No, but it's just, I feel like it's a very- Sometimes you just want a hot meal. Exactly, yeah.
11:37
I feel like it's, it's just a quintessential maybe, I don't know, I th- or not quintes- I'm gonna use that word a lot today apparently.
11:43
Um, but the, the experience of, of being a teenage girl, which I do, I write about in On Eating a little bit more. But, like, the- I was not a person who was, like, ever going to not eat.
11:57
So I'm always thinking of it as, like, you know, oh, it- like, I had this relationship to food then that was very, like, easy, and, like, I thought nothing of eating a pint of ice cream.
12:07
Um, and, and then I'm always like, oh, that w- that's very different from other people [laughs] Yeah... uh, from what I could tell. Um, but also maybe it's something about the, the sports, the soccer practice of it all.
12:18
The sports. Yes. This was definitely, this was, you know- Yeah... pre-soccer practice. Like, gotta, gotta get a little stuffing in your- Exactly... in your belly before- [laughs]... you go out there and run around. Yes.
12:28
Well, it gives you a softened feeling.
12:29
But I guess what it studies too is, like, the idea of, you know, eating, stuffing this food that is highly and probably, you know, singularly associated with a holiday, that I would just, like, go to the grocery store and eat that.
12:43
I mean- Yeah... if we get into, like, the evolution- [laughs]... of how our eating has changed. I also think it's just, like, I grew up with no sense of, you know, seasons, occasion.
12:55
It was, like, eat, you know, either what you want or what's there. There- Yeah... there was not a lot of, like, discrimination about what you would eat when...
13:05
You know, what you would eat at what time of day or year or- Yeah, yeah... I mean, it just makes me laugh now thinking about like [laughs]...
13:12
who is eating, like, yeah, Thanksgiving stuffing on, like, a Tuesday afternoon in, you know, April? But- I [laughs]... that was my, that, that was my... That's what I grew up with, and that's what I ate. Yeah.
13:23
Well, who had, who has had the biggest influence on how you eat? Okay. I'm going to, like, [laughs] shout out the entire French populace here. [laughs] I've...
13:34
So after growing up in Wilmington, I've been living in France for, for 10 years, and I think, like, you know, I mean, there's a very widespread, you know...
13:47
There's a, there's a very well-known idea about cooking in France, and again, about seasonality, about simplicity, about, like, not really, like, trying too hard to impress. This is home cooking, not- Yeah...
13:58
restaurant cooking at all. Yeah. And those things are all true, and I think they've made, um, an impression on me. Uh, you know, we valorize this and- Yeah...
14:09
in many ways it's great, but it can also mean that my cooking and eating can be quite narrow and, you know, restricted in, in some senses because, um, I do think, you know, living in a place that in many ways is, is rightfully chauvinistic about its cuisine also can lead to, like, a lack of, just a lack of curiosity- Yeah...
14:32
a lack of, um... There are good sides and bad sides to this. I mean, I just, there, there aren't crazes- Yeah... um, for, at, at least, like, in the way people cook I think tends to be much more conservative.
14:45
You might see that sometimes, again, like, in the restaurant world, but I just don't think people are onto the next thing, like, nearly as quickly- Mm...
14:55
um, in France, and therefore, like, you, you know, it can just be much harder to get ingredients that, like, in, um, the United States, for example- Right... in, in a context would have become, you know, very accessible.
15:09
Like, I went all the way across town today, um, to get... I wanted to get, like, some dashi tea bags. Yeah. And, um, yeah, it just, I knew they were gonna be...
15:22
I mean, I put aside, like, a whole morning to do that- Yeah. [laughs]... essentially. So yeah, I mean, that's, like, the biggest influence on how I eat and why, is kind of like what is available. Yeah. I mean, it's the,
15:33
you know, it's the, it's the materials of, um, how I cook, but it's also, um, yeah, just, like, you know, I know that... And this is again talking about cooking, but if- Yeah...
15:51
I know if I wanna, like, try certain things, it's just gonna, like, require a considerably more intense investment of time than it maybe- Yeah... would in, in other contexts. Yeah.
16:03
Well, do you have in France, you know, the, the way that, like, recipe developers and, like, cooking influencers are so popular in the US, is that- Mm-hmm... part of kind of French culinary life?
16:12
So I hope someone is listening to this and will answer that question more- [laughs]... thoroughly than I can. They have to be out there, but somehow they are not, like, influencing me. Right. Right.
16:25
[laughs] Um, so I remain relatively uninfluenced. Um, like, the things that I am aware of that go really viral in France are, again, like, more in the, like, in...
16:42
There's been a lot of innovation really in, in fast food- Oh, wow... in France that is, like, you know... And this is, again, like, you know, not necessarily my age group.
16:52
[laughs] But, um, French tacos that I wrote about. Yeah. There's a thing, um, now that I think I'm gonna write about soon.
17:00
I'll go ahead and say it 'cause it's a really obvious one, but it's called a croustie, and this is, like, a, just another kind of, like, creation. It's a tray full of rice. It has, um,
17:14
chicken, like, chicken fingers on it, and then the idea is that it's Asian inflected, and it has, like, you know, sauces that are I think Asian in the French imagination. Yeah.
17:28
[laughs] Uh, and they're like a huge phenom- You know, every single time a croustie place opens there are, like, 2,000 teenagers who swarm the place as though, you know, it were a Beatles concert in 1964 or whatever.
17:43
So I'm interested in that, but, um, yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, like, nominate, um, I'm gonna nominate the, you know, the French people [laughs]... as, as a big influence on, on how I eat and why.
17:59
And I think, again, like, that would be the case anytime you're moving from, you know-
18:06
One place to another where, um, just like, you know, the produce and the kind of like condiments and spices and herbs are different from what you're used to.
18:17
But I, I do think that it is particularly pronounced in France because of the, you know, emphasis on orthodoxy and- Right, right... um, you know, around cooking, eating, and, and meals. Yeah.
18:32
Well, do you, do you like to cook? [laughs] It's a loaded question.
18:37
I feel like I'm, like, transitioning from someone who loves to cook to someone who is getting, like, really tired of it, and that's because I cook for a family every night, so- Yeah... um, yeah. Do I like to cook?
18:52
I don't know. [laughs] I j- [laughs] I cook. Do I cook? I can answer that one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I do cook. I don't know. I don't know if...
18:58
I mean, if you had asked me, like, 10 years ago probably, like, what my hobby was, what my favorite thing to do was, I would be like, "Cooking," but I just, um...
19:07
Yeah, it really depends for me, like, on how much time I have. Yeah. And that is increasingly little, so if I'm- Yeah... cooking something I wanna be cooking on the weekends, yes, I love to cook. Yeah.
19:19
And I love to like... You know, I mean, I'm not, like, a needlepointer. I'm [laughs] no, like, crafting talents. That is my manual.
19:28
That's, like, the thing I do where I'm, like, using my hands for something, therefore not using my hands to scroll or- Yes. [laughs]... do some, you know... Not on my phone.
19:40
Like, in the zone, just, like, doing something, um, doing something physical- Yeah... in a way, and I do enjoy that. It's just that, like, it, the pace is a little bit relentless for me.
19:57
Yeah, yeah. You feel me? No, absolutely. You cook, like, every day, don't you? I cook every day, but I don't have kids, so I do think that makes a difference, where it's like- Well, it's just that it's, like-...
20:05
I don't have anyone rejecting anything... it's draining because- Yeah... every single thing I'm like, oh, you know. It's just so hard to, like...
20:13
I don't know if it's a Venn diagram or checking the boxes or what the metaphor is, but to, like, you know, in terms of, like, being good to eat, economical- [laughs]...
20:25
easy enough that I can do it after a work day and before- Yeah... you know, kids have to go to sleep.
20:32
Everybody in the fam- It j- like, doesn't contain some, you know, just, like, veto ingredient for- [laughs] Some person in the family. So it's just like I, I find it like a logistical challenge- It's a logistic...
20:43
more than a, um, more than a, like, you know, culinary or creative or- Yeah... boostatory or whatever one. It's, it's- [laughs]...
20:54
j- cooking has become, cooking has become, it's, like, a h- is heavily logistical for me right now. Yeah. And I don't find that, like, extremely fun. Yeah. No. It, it is...
21:04
I think most of the cooking, I think, I've had to admit to myself over time is, is just most of it won't be fun, right? It's the most- And that's what cooking is for- Exactly... I mean, most- Most people. [laughs]...
21:16
people around the world as far as- Yeah... as far as I can tell. Um- Yeah... but yeah, I do just feel this kind of like relentless just drumbeat of putting food on the table, and- Yeah... it's just...
21:30
I, I find it, like, really hard to get, to just, like, find stuff that fulfills, like, the, you know, sufficient conditions [laughs]- Yes, yes... every day.
21:41
[laughs] So going much beyond that is, like, a little, it is a little much for me right now. Yeah, no, I totally, I totally understand.
21:48
I've, like, really committed to Taco Tuesday because it, like, really helps my brain, for whatever reason, to just be like, "On Tuesday, I don't think about what we're eating for dinner." [laughs] Me too. Well, when...
21:59
So I work at home, and like, I go through... A lot of times I cook my lunch, but I just, I'm, I have a lot of work right now- Yeah... and it takes too long. So if I have leftovers, I eat them.
22:10
But if I don't, I buy my lunch, and there's, like, a new kind of Greek deli near where I live, and I've found an order that just works for me. [laughs] It, like, beignets, so I guess you would call them.
22:25
Like, what would you call that in English? Like, a little kind of like... They're, they're zucchini and feta, and they're like a little disc. You know, like- Hmm... um, like a, a fried,
22:39
you could call it like a galette also in French. Okay. But like a little... Like, essentially, like, a little... What would you ca- Can you call it, like, a beignet? I, I guess. I mean, what is it?
22:51
Is it like a, a galette? A fritter. Like- A fritter- A fritter. [laughs]... is the word I'm looking for. Perfect. It's a, it's a, it's a zucchini fritter. Yes.
22:57
So I get, like, four little fritters, and they have, like, a lunchtime deal. And then it's a tomato salad most of the year. It probably should not be a tomato salad in February. But anyway, it's a lunchtime deal.
23:09
It's 850. I put, like, a big scoop of Greek yogurt. Um, you know, I make my... I, like, I, I, I kinda like, I supplement it when I get food. Yeah, yeah.
23:21
[laughs] Um, I kinda, like, pad it out with some Greek yogurt and some olive oil. And anyway, I just really like it.
23:26
But so I was talking to the people today, and I, they were like, the, the guy was like, "Oh, I gave you a, you know, fifth fritter today." And I was like, "Am I your best client?"
23:35
[laughs] "Or are there people who come actually every single day?" 'Cause I'm probably there, like, right now, like, three times a week. And he goes, um, "No, you're, you're our best client."
23:44
[laughs] And he goes, "And you're fa- and you're faith- and you're very faithful to your choices." [laughs] Like, same that I order the same- Yeah, yeah, yeah... just exactly the same thing every day.
23:52
And I was like, "Well, you know, I do, because every single night I feel like I'm starting from scratch on, like-" Yeah... "what am I gonna put on the table tonight?" Yeah. So anyway, I was just like, you know what?
24:03
Like, the tyranny of choice at dinner- Yeah... is already, like, too much. [laughs] It just makes life so much easier to eat the same thing for lunch every day. At least, like- Yes...
24:11
you know, I'm not gonna eat it, I'm not gonna eat it forever, but I'm on a little- Yeah... I'm on a little jag right now. I love those, those jags.
24:17
The, what the, they call hyperfixation meals or whatever they- Oh, interesting... whatever it is. Yes. Okay, you- [laughs]... amazing. [laughs] All right.
24:24
I'm gonna go back tomorrow and tell him that I'm, yeah- Hyperfixated... not only faithful, but hyperfixated. And I'm always like, I don't think...
24:33
Like, like people will call it that on TikTok or whatever, and then I'm like, I think that's just called, like, eating. Like [laughs] I think it's just called being too lazy. [laughs] Like, or just, you know, it's the...
24:45
You know, when you're working and then you have to eat lunch, like, it makes sense to just kinda, like, fall back on the same stuff. And- Yeah...
24:52
it's, I don't think we have to, like, label it, you know, as, as some- It's funny 'cause like also sometimes when I go in, I'm like, "Mm, the spanakopita looks good. Like maybe- Yeah... I should make that today."
25:01
And then I'm just like, you know what? I know the other thing is gonna be $8.50. [laughs] Yes, yes. I'm just like, I don't feel like rolling the like, you know- [laughs]...
25:08
roulette wheel of like how much that thing weighs- Yes, yes... and whether to spend 25 bucks for lunch. And I don't know. I just like wanna get in and get out with my, with my fritters, so. You can't beat 8.50.
25:19
That's amazing. Right? Yeah. I mean, it's a really good, it, and like it tastes good. Yeah. It fills me up. Yeah. It's like, I also feel, I feel fine about buying my lunch- Yeah... when I'm paying 8.50. Yeah.
25:31
'Cause if I go buy stuff to cook, it's gonna cost that much anyway. Exactly, yeah. Well, I... You know, which is your favorite meal of the day? So- [laughs] Not breakfast. Yes.
25:42
Um, I'm like a savory breakfast eater living in a sweet breakfast world, so, um, taking suggestions. [laughs] Put them in the comment box. But I have no- Yeah...
25:53
I really have a hard time finding a breakfast that just works for me, so I often skip it. I have like a cup of tea in the morning. Yeah. Um, I love, I, I, I mean, I, I...
26:03
If you were gonna put breakfast in front of me, I would happily eat it, but it's just, I don't know.
26:10
It's like a scramble, and I don't really like a lot of the things that you can just kinda like grab and, you know- Yeah... shove in the morning. Yeah. Um, I love lunch. I wrote about this- Yeah...
26:22
in The New Yorker recently. Love, love a long, not necessarily, but it could be boozy lunch. Mm-hmm. Um, and just like, I don't know, kind of the unexpectedness. Um, I don't... Well, there are a lot of things.
26:38
I mean, it's the combination of like light and food is always- Yeah, yeah... a winning one. I mean, imagine like being able to [laughs] like, you know, see the sun and have something on your plate at the same time.
26:50
It's just, um, endlessly appealing. I think lunch is the most public meal. Yeah.
26:55
So there's this sense of variety, both in like what you could have or where you could go, but also who you might, um, take your lunch- Yeah... with.
27:04
I mean, I think it's the meal that you're most likely to, you know, eat in company, and- Yeah... in the company of someone... Well, in the company of somebody who's like not a member of your immediate family. Yeah.
27:15
Um, so I just like these different permutations of lunch, you know? There's like- Yeah... business lunch. There's power lunch. [laughs] There's long lunch, boozy lunch. I don't know.
27:25
There i- but there's like grab a sandwich and- Yeah... you know, there's picnic lunch, whatever. But there... I just think lunch is kind of like endlessly, uh, iter- iterative- [laughs]...
27:38
or iterable, but it's like lunch is- Yeah... lunch is what you make of it. So yeah, big fan of the combination of light and food, of not having to get a babysitter to go to a restaurant. Yeah, yeah.
27:50
[laughs] Of, um, just, I don't know. I think, I think lunch has a lot to recommend it. Yes. No, it's so interesting to ask people this question because I think it's a very, I don't know. Like, writers like lunch.
28:01
Like, I'm finding out that, like, we really like lunch. Especially- Interesting... as people who work from home, I think lunch offers so much what you're talking about, the permutations that it can take.
28:11
It, it offers a lot of opportunity for difference in like- Yes... especially when you work at home and you're on a computer, you know, like your day-to-day life is, is very kind of, you know, it's contained.
28:22
And so lunch offers the possibilities for it to like go in different directions. Absolutely. Yeah. And it's like a little bit, you know, it's a little bit transgressive, or it's a little bit- Yes...
28:32
of a treat because we are supposed to be there in front of the computer. Yeah.
28:35
[laughs] And just to like walk away, step away from the screen, I mean, when I'm really writing, like I absolutely forbid myself like lunch at all if I need to get stuff done.
28:47
I mean, it's just not compatible- Yeah, yeah... for me at least- Yeah... with writing because I like to, I like to write during the day. I mean- Yeah... I guess if you're, if you're a nocturnal, you know- [laughs]...
28:58
a nocturnal creature, then lunch could work that way. But anyway, it's just, it's so nice. It's like- Yeah... yeah, a step out of time and out of duty and out of, you know,
29:09
responsibility and, uh, so yeah, I think lunch feels like, just feels really nice- Yeah... uh, when I have the opportunity to sit down and enjoy it. Yeah.
29:21
Well, you did just, you, you finished a book that's gonna come out. When is it coming out? It comes out July 14th. It's not out- Oh my God, oh, it's this year? Yeah, yeah. Oh, boy.
29:31
So yeah, you're six months, uh, less than six months out. Yeah. Oh, wow. Um- Okay. [laughs] But I think if I really- I cannot believe it was so soon. It is. I know. Yeah.
29:40
I'm just finishing, I'm, um, finishing the so-called first pass right now- Cool, yeah... like this week. So- Yeah. I was jealous- Yeah... of your spiral bound. You posted it on Instagram, right?
29:51
You have the spiral bound- I, you know what? Yeah. I was trying. I mean, I have a printer, but it was just not happening for me. It doesn't work. And I went, I had to go to the copy shop. Yeah.
30:00
Next time, I was l- saying, I was like, oh, I'm taking that idea for next time because I find that when I get the bound galley of the book, that's when I can really like see- When you find out-... the structure...
30:11
what, everything that's wrong with it... that's when you find, yes, exactly.
30:13
[laughs] And then I'm like, I needed to look at, like I was looking at all the chapters separately printed out, then I was reading it all together, and it was like I need like, they have to be bound for some reason for me to really figure out what the problems are.
30:25
I don't know what that's about. And I agree 'cause it's like- Yeah... well, I don't know. I mean, I, I've, yeah, I knew I had to have it printed out, and I could not get the printer working.
30:32
[laughs] I'm like, I hope, I hope... You know, my husband was out of town, and he wasn't gonna be back for three days, and I was like, "There's no hope. I gotta go to- [laughs]... gotta go to Copy One." So-
30:43
And then when I got there they were like, "Oh," they've, like, disabled- there's, like, a lock on it. They've disabled... You know- Yeah... there was a reason wh- why I, like, could not print it. Print it, yeah.
30:52
So it's good that I went there. [laughs] Yeah. Wait, so Alicia, when is your- Yeah... when's your book coming out? April 14th. Oh my God, amazing. Yeah. So two, two months. Less than two months [laughs]
31:03
from today when we are speaking. Oh, I can't wait to read it. Yes. No, I'm very excited about it coming out.
31:07
I'm like, we're, like, really in the flow of, like, planning the, the book tour and all that sort of stuff, so that's exciting. Um, the pre-orders seem to be going well. But, you know, it is, it gets...
31:19
It, you start to get nervous, I guess, cl- the closer it gets. Actually, I mean, my first book I wanted to just, like, die and crawl under a rock, and this one I feel fine about, so that's good, I think.
31:30
I mean, how do you feel- I, I feel-... from your first book versus this one? Um, I feel, yeah, a little daunted by, like, the knowledge of all the things that I was too naive to be anxious about the first go. Yes, yes.
31:47
But at the same time, I also feel like, I don't know, I'm kind of like, I know that I wrote something good. Yeah, yeah. And if, if that is all that ever comes of it, then I think that's also enough- Yeah, yeah... for me.
32:03
Well, it's very different from your first book, right? It's, it's extremely different, yeah. [laughs] Um, I feel, I mean, I can tell you about it. I feel like- Yeah, tell me...
32:10
it's not, like, a natural fit necessarily for, um, for, like, a food conversation. [laughs] But it's about, um...
32:17
I've been working on it for almost 10 years, and it's about what's thought to be the only successful coup d'état on American soil, which was perpetrated by white supremacists in 1898 in Wilmington, North Carolina, where I grew up.
32:32
Um, and it was really... It, it was, like, a well-known event at the time. I mean, you know, it wasn't like it was just some obscure kind of, like, aberration in a- Yeah... small town in North Carolina.
32:46
It was really important. And after... So the, the white supremacists, who were Democrats, they planned this takeover for months.
32:56
They murdered a bunch of Black people in the streets, and then they marched to the city hall and they overthrew the government- Wow... at gunpoint. Which was a multiracial, democratically elected government.
33:06
And so, of course, after that happens, the people in the town who didn't agree with it appealed to the federal government for help. McKinley was the president at the time, Trump's favorite president.
33:19
And, um, you know, it was 30 years after the Civil War, and McKinley basically decided that, uh, preserving white unity was more important, um, than protecting democracy. Yeah.
33:36
And so the govern- federal government declined to send any troops to do anything, and this sent a message nationwide that white vigilantes could act with impunity. So this was really instrumental in the rise of Jim Crow.
33:52
It was instrumental in the, you know, disenfranchisement of Black men. Women obviously couldn't vote at the time. It was, it was a really big deal. But- Yeah...
34:02
over the years, um, you know, it was both suppressed and forgotten about by, you know, in the, in the public realm, and subject to a lot of taboo.
34:13
And so anyway, my, what I really wanted to do, again, I mean, I think I was talking about this with regard to food, but I wanted to connect the dots. Like, rather than- Yeah...
34:22
just like this thing happened, I wanted to really, really stay with the story. Yeah.
34:27
And so what I ended up doing, the way I wrote it is I trace, um, the trajectories of families, families of white perpetrators and of Black survivors all the way into the present day. Wow. Like, over 125 years.
34:41
And really wanted to, like, look at the long-term effects, um, of the coup, and also of the kind of qualitative ones in addition to just the quantitative ones.
34:51
I feel like you can be like, what were the political and economic consequences? Which, of course, are, you know, were grave and were important in this case.
34:58
But I also just wanted to look at, um, what it meant to lose a home- Yeah... in many cases.
35:05
You know, there were, um, leaders of the Black community and their white Republican allies were banished from Wilmington on pain of death. Um, I wanted to... You know, there was someone, um,
35:18
one of the descendants I collaborated with told me that she attributed her parents' divorce in the 1960s to this event in 1898.
35:27
Which the first time I heard it blew my mind, but it really makes sense when you kind of, you know, follow the trail through the years. So anyway, that's, that's kind of the book, um, in a nutshell. Yeah.
35:39
But- That's, that's a huge undertaking, and also, like, so wildly relevant to current events. Yeah, it's bec- uh, I mean, I, I...
35:48
Through the years as I was writing this, you know, I kept thinking to myself, "Wow, I really should have, like, had it out," you know? It w- I would've had a lot to say about, like, January 6th. Yeah.
35:57
And the kind of, you know, bleak part is that it's, every time I've thought that, it's only become more- More... relevant to the current moment. Yeah. But- Absolutely, yeah.
36:10
Well, I mean, this is always my final question for folks, and, and I, I think it's an interes- considering the, [laughs] the trajectory of the conversation- Yeah... for you, is cooking a political act?
36:22
I think it definitely is. I mean, I feel like, um, you have been so influential in my, my thinking about this. I mean, I feel like reading you over the years has probably really contributed to the way I think about this.
36:38
But I think, like, uh, there are a lot of aspects. I mean, obviously there's, you know, what we choose to buy and how we choose to speak-... with our, with our money and with our choices as consumers.
36:51
But I think one of the things that really came to mind when you asked that question was, um, for me, what, one thing that feels really political about cooking is that it's an unproductive act [laughs] Yeah...
37:03
in the capitalist sense. It doesn't yield anything. I mean, yes, you, you know,
37:10
feed yourself and you feed whoel- whoever else you're cooking for, but, you know, then they eat it, and they digest it, and they excrete it, and you have to do it all over again.
37:20
And it doesn't add up to anything [laughs] in a sense other than that you are giving nourishment and- Yeah... often, I hope, love through that. But it's like, you know, how many meals have I cooked? Where's my resume?
37:34
Yeah, yeah. [laughs] Where is my, where is my body of work for all that? Yeah. [laughs] But, you know, I think, I think the unproductiveness of it is political. It's time away.
37:47
Um, as I said before, it's time away from work, it's time away from hustling, it's time away from scrolling, it's time a- time away from, um...
37:58
You know, you're just, you're not, yeah, you're not working, you're not scrolling, you're not buying, you're not selling. I mean, that, you, you are buying the food that you're cooking- Yeah... as I said before. But, um,
38:07
I think there is something, yeah, I think there's something pretty, um, powerful in that. And like I said, I mean, I, I cook for a family, so this is also, like, a way for me to transmit- Yeah...
38:23
some of those ideas. Um, you know, like, as I'm stuffing my kids with, like, the chickpeas they don't wanna eat on a Monday night or whatever, [laughs] and they're like- Yeah... "Why can't we have a burger?"
38:37
Like, that- Yeah... that's a forum for a conversation about- Yeah... um, about why, you know, we should eat, uh, as little meat as we can, even if it's more than, um, you know, I might like.
38:52
And, um, yeah, I think, I, I think for sure. I mean, that I'm, don't feel ambivalent about that one at all. [laughs] Definitely cooking is a political act.
39:01
But I mean, I really do, I, I thank you for all of the kind of vocabulary and just, like, ideas that... I mean, you, you, uh, I, I feel like s- my robust answer is so- [laughs]...
39:16
kind of like, you know, Alicia Kennedy-influenced- [laughs]... by, by many years. So yeah. Oh, that means a lot. Thank you. This is a, this is a great place to be asked that question and to be able to answer it.
39:26
[laughs] Thank you. That means a lot. No, I, yeah. Well, thank you so much for, for being here, and I'm, I'm so, yeah, happy we got to actually speak. Me too. Um, what are you cooking?
39:39
[laughs] Today I'm actually making a mushroom risotto that I wanted to make on Valentine's Day, but then just was not in the mood to do on Saturday for various reasons. Yeah. And so, like, we ended up eating pizza.
39:55
[laughs] Like, getting a big pizza order on Saturday, eating one pie U- Saturday, one pie yesterday, and just, like, kind of taking the weekend off. And then I was like, "All right. Today I'm ready.
40:05
I'm to- Oh, that's so nice... I'm ready to make the risotto."
40:06
[laughs] What I did, my, like, [laughs] my great Valentine's Day success story was that there's a restaurant I've wanted to try for a couple of years in Paris, but it's, like, not very close to where we live, and just, like, getting a reservation is a hassle.
40:18
Whatever, rigamarole that I just like- Yeah... had never been motivated to partake in. [laughs] And I was like, "Oh, I di-" W- um, Olivier, my husband, and I were gonna go out on Friday night. So
40:30
we, like, get the babysitter, get the reservation. We're doing it. We're gonna go try this restaurant.
40:35
And, um, we're in the Metro on the way over, and we're running late, so we call to tell them, and they're like, "We do not have a reservation- [laughs]... under the name Collins. What are you talking about?"
40:45
[laughs] And I was like, "You know, now that you mention it, I did not receive any kind of, like, confirmation." [laughs] Like, you know, asking me, like, to reconfirm.
40:54
And I said, "Well, can you just search, like, just so I know if I'm completely going crazy or not, is there any reservation, like, not for tonight?"
41:02
And they were like, "Oh, actually, you reserved for Friday, March 13th." [laughs] Which is also, beware everybody, like, out there, um, there's, like, total calendar symmetry between February and March this year.
41:17
And March. Oh, wow. So I just scanned today where I had some meeting in it. I was like, "Oh, it's Monday, [laughs] like- [laughs]... March 16th." Anyhow, just, like, don't let it get you. Um- [laughs]
41:31
So anyway, we, like, made a, you know, quick recovery and just went to a restaurant we like in our neighborhood. Oh, good. Um, so yeah, that was, like, our big Valentine's.
41:42
[laughs] Better luck with the mushroom risotto tonight. Yes, yes. Thank you.
From the Desk of Alicia Kennedy
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